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Another protest, more arrests

By Bill Hess
Herald/Review
Published/Last Modified on Monday, Nov 19, 2007 - 06:37:16 am MST

SIERRA VISTA — For the second year in a row, protesters against alleged torture practices being taught on the post were arrested Sunday on charges of trespassing.

Two of the three had met Army officials Thursday and were briefed on the human intelligence collector’s course, which includes interrogation methods.

Mary Burton Riseley, 65, a Quaker from New Mexico and the Rev. Jerry Zawada, 70, of Nevada had met with post officials last week. Joining them was Betsy Lamb, 69, of Oregon as they walked across Buffalo Soldier Trail just before 1 p.m. Sunday. They were taken into custody by post law enforcement officials.

Military police arrest Betsy Lamb of Oregon on Sunday as she crosses the boundary at the Main Gate of Fort Huachuca, which had been sealed off during a protest. Observing in the background, wearing a dark jacket and tie, is Capt. Evan Seamone, the chief prosecutor with the post’s Staff Judge Advocate Office. (Suzanne Cronn•Herald/Review)


The trio were released on their own recognizance slightly before 4 p.m. and given a Dec. 4 court date to appear at the federal courthouse in Tucson for an initial hearing.

This year was the fourth annual protest at the fort and the fourth time a group of post supporters protested the anti-fort people.

Pat Pugh, whose husband is a Vietnam War veteran, said her husband and others fought to defend the right of people like the anti-fort protesters.

“They have the right to protest, the right to be wrong and the right to be fools,” she said.

And, equally as important are for people like her and other post supporters to protest against their presence outside the fort’s property, Pugh said.

Nearly 300 protesters against the Intelligence Center and alleged torture teaching on the fort gathered on a small lot on the southwest corner of Buffalo Soldier Trail and Fry Boulevard.

Lining the sidewalk were about 30 anti-protesters, who had support from nearly two dozen motorcyclists, who drove around the picket area.

Separating the two sides were more than a dozen Sierra Vista police officers.

The anti-fort protesters were kept to one area and the pro-post people to another area, with a small no-man’s area between them. Whenever a member of one group would try to walk on to the other side, a quick police reaction nipped it in the bud.

Signs were plentiful, with messages supporting both sides.

One stated, “Shut down Ft. Huachuca’s torture center.”

It was countered by one stating: “Torture is not taught on the fort.”

Shouting matches between the two sides were common.

Both sides each had particularly foul-mouthed young women, whose messages were laced with variations of the F-word and whose body language included middle finger salutes.

On the pro-post side, another woman ranted and raved about the anti-post protesters being communists and liars, her voice ever increasing in volume.

And, on the anti-post side there was a man who screamed that the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, was done by the U.S. government as an excuse to attack Iraq.

Angrily, and in a loud voice, he demeaned supporters of the fort, questioning their intelligence.

But, generally the two sides had people who were more calm in expressing their views, although both sides could temporarily have their emotions increased by rhetoric from their opponents. The pro-fort motorcyclists would drive past the anti-post group and rev up their engines, drowning out speakers and musicians.

One of the key organizers of the protest against the fort was Rick Ufford-Chase, executive director of the Presbyterian Peace Fellowship, a nationwide organization.

The Tucson resident said this year’s protest is also to honor the two priests who were arrested last year for trespassing on the post and failure to obey a Sierra Vista police officer’s orders.

The Rev. Louis Vitale, a Franciscan, and the Rev. Stephen Kelly, a Jesuit, pleaded no contest last month to the two charges and were each sentenced to five months in a federal prison.

Initially, their defense attorney tried to convince a federal judge that they had acted within the Constitution and were trying to put torture on trial by establishing Fort Huachuca as a major conduit for such training.

The judge refused to accept that, saying the case was one of trespassing and disobeying a law enforcement officer.

Vitale and Kelly previously had served many prison and jail sentences for actions involving protests against the military and other U.S. government entities.

Zawada, who is a friend of Vitale, also has served more than four years in federal and county prisons and jails for actions related to protesting.

Ufford-Chase said one thing the protest group against torture wants to do is convince Congress to set up a special committee “to investigate where interrogation techniques are taught, including Fort Huachuca.”

In the past, the fort has hosted numerous congressional staffers, human rights organizations and the media, to show them what is taught at the fort’s Intelligence Center.

On Thursday, Riseley and Zawada, along with another Quaker from Tucson, Meredith Little, spent 90 minutes with Lt. Col. Jeffrey Jennings, commander of the 309th Military Intelligence Battalion and his staff, discussing in a polite but pointed way, by both sides, how human intelligence courses operate, with the soldiers being direct about how they see the issue and the opponents questioning the training.

Ufford-Chase said the steps being taken by the annual protests outside the fort is part of a long-range project to eventually cause the military to change interrogation procedures with a “goal to end torture.”

The fort has maintained that torture is not part of any course on the fort, noting the Army’s field manual, a public document, prohibits specific actions such as waterboarding, which critics contend is taught.

The anti-fort protesters cheered when a bus went by, a sign on its sides stating: “Iraq veterans against the war.”

Like the motorcyclists, the bus driver drove around the protest site many times.

While alluding to there being Iraq War veterans inside, there were none. Also, the driver of the Texas-registered bus was cited by the Sierra Vista Police for failure to yield.

Part of the anti-fort group included the “Raging Grannies,” an organization of women who are anti-war.

They sang a number of parody songs, including one to the “Marine Corps Hymn,” that started “From the halls of torture to the gates of Fort Benning,” a take off on “from the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli.”

As the protests — anti and pro fort — continued, soldiers watched from behind large orange barricades put out on post property, which denied foot and vehicle access to the Main Gate from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. Sunday.

Perhaps the most poignant comment made by a supporter of the anti-fort group came from Pat Corbett who related her grandson, Jason Corbett, was killed in Iraq in January.

Saying she wasn’t happy about his enlisting, the grandmother from Cascabel, said what she wants is “for torture not to dishonor his sacrifice, it brings shame on all of us.”

On the pro-fort side, Terri Bills, whose 86th Signal Battalion husband just returned to the post from a 15-month deployment to Iraq, said those who oppose the fort and its Intelligence Center are wrong.

Until the opponents get the facts right, they should be careful what they say, she said.

And, like many of those who oppose the anti-post protesters, Bills said, “It was our husbands who give them the right to protest.”

Herald/Review senior reporter Bill Hess can be reached at 515-4615 or by e-mail at bill.hess@svherald.com.

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    solidox wrote on Nov 28, 2007 8:58 PM:

    " hey Jay, as true or not as your ludicrous statements might be, one thing is certain: there is no difference between you and our fanatic enemy. are you sure you're a civilized american? i don't think you are. maybe you're one of them, incognito, perhaps? yeah, that must be it. you see, i was under the impression that the whole reason our enemy is so dire and dangerous was because they have no respect for humanity in general. yeah, you're definitely not one of us. you're one of them. don't worry though, i won't torture you for information. "

    Dissent is the HIGHEST form of PATRIOTISM! wrote on Nov 28, 2007 12:31 PM:

    " I DO support our troops... I support their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness---The three rights a soldier loses when swearing their oath of loyalty--- I DO NOT support their job as aggressive ambassadors of this Immoral War... I want them home safely...and NOW! Then maybe the rest of the Arab nations and the world can see that the majority (2/3) of Americans can think for themselves and demand this illegal WAR to end! "

    Dissent is the HIGHEST form of PATRIOTISM! wrote on Nov 28, 2007 12:29 PM:

    " This is not a war for freedom! Anyone that can think for themselves just the slightest bit can see that this is an illegal and immoral WAR! Our troops are VOLUNTEER aggressors... They get paid for the inhumane orders passed down our CORRUPT chain of command! "

    Dissent is the HIGHEST form of PATRIOTISM! wrote on Nov 27, 2007 4:49 PM:

    " Don't believe me? Just google the 2005 incident in which British Special Forces were Caught Carrying Out Staged Terror In Iraq in order to turn the citizens of Iraq against each other! Not to mention our FEDERAL RESERVE is making BILLIONS of dollars by loaning more and more money plus interest to fund this un-ending war---its win-win for the bankers and the politicians the banks lobby for! "

    Dissent is the HIGHEST form of PATRIOTISM! wrote on Nov 27, 2007 4:48 PM:

    " Albert Einstein once stated: "Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war". WE (as loyal and patriotic Americans) need to defend the CONSTITUTION... NOT a racist and inhumane WAR for oil domination. IRAQ had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11...so why the hell are we there? ...To disrupt and cause havoc on a foreign culture and sustain an authoritarian presence thus maintaining a stronghold of their OIL resources for our own greedy exploitation. "

    The Infidel! wrote on Nov 26, 2007 8:05 PM:

    " I've been living here in Sierra Vista since 1978. I've served 3 tours on Ft Huachuca. I want someone to please tell me where in blazes that infamous torture center is on Ft Huachuca so I can help shut it down. These anti-american idiots keep telling us to shut it down. TELL US WHERE THE HELL IT IS AND WE'LL HELP YOU SHUT IT DOWN. Sad truth is they don't have a clue. They're simply parroting some stupid slogan they picked up from someone who picked it up from someone who ......... "

    Please Come Back Ewen wrote on Nov 26, 2007 6:36 PM:

    " Ewen Garner please come back. SV needs you desperately. We miss our village idiot. "

    Jay wrote on Nov 26, 2007 6:31 PM:

    " Solidox, you sound about as uniformed about politics as my first grader. I say, do anything to get the correct information so that my son who's in the military can come come home safe! water boarding, ain't nothing compared to what I would do if I was over there trying to get information. "

    To this comment board is nuts wrote on Nov 26, 2007 5:47 PM:

    " A masters degree doesn't make anyone smart. He still has a military mind. "

    Ewen Garner wrote on Nov 26, 2007 4:46 PM:

    " My wife & I were in Sierra Vista on the 17th Nov for a brief visit with Bill & Mary Ward and saw the disgraceful actions of the idiots gathered on the Dissent & Disgust Corner ( back when we lived there) that was our term for the open lot at the corner of Fry & Buffalo Soldier. I HAD OFTEN THOUGHT OF BUYING THE LOT ,FENCING IT AND POSTING IT WITH NO TRESPASSING BY IDIOTS. Seems to me that Sierra Vista has an inordinate percentage of Dim Wits for it's population, One of the reasons that we moved. "

    Dissent is the HIGHEST form of PATRIOTISM! wrote on Nov 26, 2007 4:17 PM:

    " In response to OFFENDED AMERICAN on NOV 20: I assure you that no anti-torture protester in the Orange jumpsuits wore a sign that said "wearing orange for Osama". That sign was held by the same woman that holds the exact same sign every Wednesday morning in front of the recruiting station on Speedway and Tucson. She attempts to degrade the meaning behind orange, which is a world wide symbol for Driving Out The Bush Regime! www.worldcantwait.net "

    Dissent is the HIGHEST form of PATRIOTISM! wrote on Nov 26, 2007 4:15 PM:

    " I believe if we would have had the opportunity to communicate in a civilized manner we would have realized that We believe the same crucial things. This was NOT an anti-fort vs. pro-fort protest. This was a protest against the inhumane treatment of detainee's---HUMANS. Our role as aggressors in this war puts the responsibility in our hands to set the moral example. An American life is no more valuable than the life of an Arab! "

    Dissent is the HIGHEST form of PATRIOTISM! wrote on Nov 26, 2007 4:12 PM:

    " The rebuttal this article has caused, represents an unfortunate divide in America. Why can't we learn from history and aim to communicate our differences rather than fueling another civil war with ignorant generalizations and name-calling. I was among the protestors Sunday and I was saddened that the meaning of the protest became misguided as the pro-war people began to taunt the protestors of torture. I also find it sad that Americans with different opinions have to be forcefully separated for their own safety. "

    solidox wrote on Nov 26, 2007 3:16 PM:

    " solidox sez: hey Pauly, we americans are usually better than having to resort to torture to "extract information from an enemy combatant". we aren't like THEM, so we should not act like THEM, in any context. "

    Former SV wrote on Nov 26, 2007 2:42 PM:

    " You are protesting the wrong thing.We have more wounded Veterans,physically and mentally then we have ever had, technology is saving them.If we can afford to send them to war then why in the hell are we not taking care of them when they return? That is the only torture our Government teaches. They didn't take care of the Vietnam Veterans and they aren't taking care of the returning soldiers. Instead of protesting, ask your medical & Mental Health professionals to help them. Our current ones are buried w/patients, to many soldiers not enough providers.God Bless our Soldiers! "

    Where's the oil? wrote on Nov 26, 2007 8:17 AM:

    " Energy prices shouldn't be soaring! We got into this war for the oil...where's the oil? Why haven't our oil prices dropped? "

    I call that Slander wrote on Nov 26, 2007 8:10 AM:

    " To Mr. Brett Jameson III. What evidence do you have to make a statement that everyone in the white house, senate and Congress (I'm assuming you mean the House of Representatives...Senators also belong to the Congress) have lined their pockets with billions of dollars? A statement such as that can be slanderous without some type of evidence to support such an allegation. "

    Pauly wrote on Nov 26, 2007 7:33 AM:

    " You liberals just don’t get it do you? Answer me this, how do you suggest we quickly extract vital information from an enemy combatant? War isn’t supposed to be PC and fair unless you don’t care about winning. You do understand that they will cut your infidel head off given the chance. So what’s it going to be? "

    this comment board is nuts.... wrote on Nov 25, 2007 5:51 PM:

    " People were not arrested for expressing their opinions about torture and war they were arrested for trespassing. Soldiers are definitely not in it for the money, give me a break! My husband is a proud soldier with a masters degree, he could make way more money as a civilian. He chooses to serve our country out of duty and respect for it. "

    Brett Jameson III wrote on Nov 25, 2007 6:46 AM:

    " The sad part of this story is that people are being arrested for expressing their opinions about torture & the war. This corrupt administration in the White House, Senate & Congress, has set back & lined "their" pockets with billions of "unaccounted for" taxpayers dollars off of this war. This was the main agenda for this administration from day 1..."selling the war to the people." Now almost 5 years later & 3800+ killed, we still lack border security, no end to the war in sight, and food & energy prices soaring all because of greed. "

    duh wrote on Nov 24, 2007 8:44 PM:

    " Why charge anyone with trespassing? Just let them go in through the new parking lot on Kachina and through the perimeter trail gates (thankfully these were closed once the fort got word!). :) "

    Confused... wrote on Nov 24, 2007 8:59 AM:

    " FOR GOD's SAKE! Would someone PLEASE take me by the hand and show me exactly where this "torture center" is. I've been an instructor at the interrogator course for over five years and I'll be darned if I have ever been able to find it. Funny still, I can't recall a single student of mine who would say I taught them anything about how to torture another human being. They must bring them back here in secret after they graduate and teach them these things in the buried chambers beneath Ft. Huachuca. Ride on Freedom Riders! "

    Dan wrote on Nov 24, 2007 8:21 AM:

    " People that are posting the whole "more than 11% of army recruits need waiver to join" are stupid, what is your point? do you know anything about the military? do you think that 11% are the ones going to intelligence school? NO! your point is not valid, I am in the military and DO know how many investigations you have to go through before you get a clearance, and there is a nifty thing called that ASVAB, I don't think they let people that score low on it do any kind of intelligence job, before you post check yourself. "

    mac wrote on Nov 22, 2007 1:20 PM:

    " Terrorists are scum and they are lucky if we give them a smoke before shooting them. The protesters are lucky to have soldiers protecting the right of protesters to never have to grow up and face the reality that this is a dangerous world. "

    Lowering standards wrote on Nov 22, 2007 10:44 AM:

    " Actually the standards are set very low to get into some branches of the service. And having a criminal record only depends on the charge. As for "retired solider" you believe liberals are brainwashed and uneducated. Education comes in many forms and so I find that comment very hard to believe. There are extremes on both sides of the political party. I tend to read the views pro and con on an issue and then decide. "

    Fact wrote on Nov 22, 2007 7:58 AM:

    " More than 11 percent of the Army recruits needed waivers for problems with the law -- up from 7.9 percent the previous year and more than double the percentage in 2003. "

    Criminal Records wrote on Nov 21, 2007 6:21 PM:

    " To TO WOW @ 1019 Nov 21. Criminal records are not an automatic disqualification. "

    To Wow wrote on Nov 21, 2007 10:19 AM:

    " Actually, from someone on the inside who sees the quality of soldier recruited, you are wrong in you assertion that the Army is more lenient in their standards for enlisting soldiers. Enlistees must have at least a GED and criminal records are an automatic disqualifier. Please check your facts next time. "

    To Pro-Torture wrote on Nov 21, 2007 8:56 AM:

    " You stated "who cares what they do to get the information". You seem to have a lot in common with Al Quada. So many people are writing inflict pain, they do. I admit when the story came out I had a question in my mind. I didn't think the fort would train for that, but after reading comments made, it does make me wonder. I've been trying to see an answer to the question asked about the woman with the pink sign. If that was military issued. She slapped every serving/veteran in the face "

    Retired soldier wrote on Nov 21, 2007 8:31 AM:

    " SV Lib seems to be very uneducated as most liberals seem to be. They are brainwashed into thinking that everything in this country is evil and should be banned. If you think that way then you need to leave this country and go see how it is in other countries. "

    To Wow wrote on Nov 21, 2007 8:17 AM:

    " Wow, do yourself a favor and use some of your hard earned GI Bill benefits and go back to school. If you want an up-close look what soldiers are like now, why don't you join us here in Afghanistan. We'll show you just how soft, less educated and less disciplined we are compared to your stellar self. "

    Sue Kovac wrote on Nov 21, 2007 8:16 AM:

    " Rob Martinez, thank you for your service and for your post. The philosophical underpinnings of this country's existence are not about loving it or leaving it, they are about freedom to hold different beliefs than our neighbors. It is not treason to believe this war is wrong, or that our leadership is misguided at best and is grubbily craven in its hidden agendas at worst. Neither are the protests against this war aimed at the troops fighting it or to denegrate the spirit in which they serve our country. Who does this kind of polarization benefit? "

    Born in the USA and proud of my soldiers!! wrote on Nov 21, 2007 8:07 AM:

    " Vietnam soldiers were treated very badly coming home by our citizens. I thank all soldiers that served and is serving our country and I thank the families that stay behind. For Vietnam I had relatives serve in that WAR also- remember the saying *Bury me upside down so everyone can get on there knees and kiss my Butt!* Vietnam soldiers were treated horribly and they are supposed to be supporting the troops over in IRAQ and Afganistan and letting the Civilians know we will not tolerate it this time. I am proud of you all Soldiers. "

    Retired soldier wrote on Nov 21, 2007 8:06 AM:

    " Jack, Actually you are wrong. Apparently you forget about the revolutionary war where soldiers fought to give us all that right to free speech. The constitution came about after soldiers fought and died to give us those rights so everything we have in this country today was bought and paid for in soldiers blood. "

    Just me wrote on Nov 21, 2007 8:05 AM:

    " How dare you make the prisoners go naked and wear blindfolds!!! That's cruel even compared to what they did to our people! The prisoners' treatments are worse than flying planes filled with civilian men, women and children into buildings or the ground! Treat these evil prisoners with dignity! At least they let our people make phone calls to say their last "I love yous" and "goodbyes" to their shocked families before they died. Wait, aren't these the same people who would blow themselves up to kills others? So, what's the big deal? "

    Amanda wrote on Nov 20, 2007 9:34 PM:

    " I understand and agree they have a right to protest, freedom of speech, etc, but what good does it really do to get arrested? You don't really prove anything by walking across a "line" and getting arrested for it in this case. Just pure stupidity. If the "Chris. S" commenting below is who I think it is, this will be the first thing we've agreed on in a long time. "

    Wow wrote on Nov 20, 2007 8:02 PM:

    " I am an Nam vet, we had to do KP, we got paid $68/mo in basic. And as far as the statement that, to wow made, the percentage of AWOL's was probably lower. And the enforcement of AWOL, and deserting was higher. The Army is getting more leinent all the time. Less education, older, criminals records, are overlooked now, to try and meet their enlistment goals. "

    Offended American wrote on Nov 20, 2007 5:07 PM:

    " I was driving by the protesters and was deeply offended by the sign that one young traitor in orange was wearing. "Wearing Orange For Osama!" This sign said it all. These are not patriotic Americans exercizing their right to protest, but Enemy's of our country, supporting the enemy! "

    Pro-torture wrote on Nov 20, 2007 4:47 PM:

    " Those heathens will do whatever they want to get information out of our soldiers. Do you honestly think that by asking with a pretty-please, we'll get important information regarding attacks against US soldiers/soil? No, and who CARES what they do to get the information? Does it affect you personally? No. So shut up about humane treatment of people that would just as soon kill us. "

    jonnyboy wrote on Nov 20, 2007 2:19 PM:

    " Notice where the three who were arrested came from: Mary Burton Riseley, 65, New Mexico;the Rev. Jerry Zawada, 70, of Nevada and Betsy Lamb, 69, of Oregon. I wonder just exactly how much they know about Fort Huachuca when not one of them is from this area. I completely agree with their right to protest, but can only hope that they will give thanks to our military, especially those who died to give them that right. "

    Proud Military Wife of 21 years wrote on Nov 20, 2007 12:40 PM:

    " "Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you. JESUS CHRIST and the MILITARY MAN OR WOMAN serving our country proudly. One died for our souls and the other so you could have freedom." Think about that one when you protest without the knowledge of what any military installation may be teaching. "

    Freedom of Speech wrote on Nov 20, 2007 12:25 PM:

    " The Geneva Convention defines what is acceptable in the laws of war. The US has agreed to the laws of war defined in the Geneva Convention. You can be assured that the MI school would not teach any techniques that are prohibited by the Geneva Convention. So I believe that the protestors are a bit misguided in their attempts to target Fort Huachuca for this type of training. They need focus their energies elsewhere. "

    Freedom of Speech wrote on Nov 20, 2007 12:14 PM:

    " I believe the right to freedom of speech helps to promote debate. It helps us come to a balanced conclusion. The problem is that some people exist on the fringes of those extremes and their relevancy is compromised by their behavior at these protests. It surprises me that the same people that were invited on post to be briefed on instructions at the school are the same ones that were arrested. It apears that their compass is out of wack...Cont. "

    Freedom of Speech wrote on Nov 20, 2007 12:09 PM:

    " Every soldier in the US Army has taken an oath to uphold the liberties protected by the US Constitution. Yes Jack that includes Freedom of Speech. One of the benefits of serving in the military is the likelyhood that you will be assigned to countries throughout the world...That experience gives a soldier a balanced perspective of the liberties he has promised to uphold and protect. Many countries to include free countries in Europe don't have the same liberties we take for granted in America...Cont. "

    Chris S. wrote on Nov 20, 2007 10:58 AM:

    " You know what I've never understood? What point does one make by getting themselves arrested for their cause? Why does someone think, "Hey, I am going to put something on my public record that makes me look stupid! But it gets my cause noticed!!" No people, it doesn't. It just gives us a reason to laugh at your stupidity. "

    Asking question again wrote on Nov 20, 2007 10:10 AM:

    " Can someone answer this.....on the home page there are 2 women with signs. One woman has a pink one stating something about "our husbands". It is hard to tell by the picture, but is that a military issue cap she is wearing? If so, as prior military I take that as disrespect to all people who are serving or have served in the armed forces. The uniform should be worn correctly. If it's a fashion statement let her go active and she can wear it all the time. Disrespecting the uniform is like disrespecting the flag, it represents freedom. "

    Claudia wrote on Nov 20, 2007 9:44 AM:

    " If my son was deployed to war, and was captured, then we captured some of their guys you know what-Do whatever it takes! I say do whatever it takes to get him back, and I could promise anyone, whatever they were doing to him would be oh so much worse. To the protestors, your fore fathers are probably rolling in their graves at the thought of your protests. If you want to protest, go see Al Quada, and protest to them their treatment that they can dish out, and see how they welcome your input. You are embarrassing and ignorant! "

    Rob Martinez wrote on Nov 20, 2007 9:44 AM:

    " To "It's really simple" It's not that easy as "love it or leave it." Is that how you treat your relationships? Probrably not. You take the good with the bad; nurture the good and try to fix the bad. Why should these people leave? Many in may family, including muself, have served so that people with different views can protest. God bless them for caring! We don't want to kick out people with different views; when will it end , then? "

    larry crowe wrote on Nov 20, 2007 8:44 AM:

    " In this day of liberalism and my belief of freedom of expression for all I feel we should help the anti fort protestors by offering them a free ticket to a country fighting for democracy to see first hand methods used by our counterparts and enemies to ensure equal treatment during interrorgation of any of our own soldiers when captured. "

    to wow wrote on Nov 20, 2007 7:33 AM:

    " So people drafted in the '60's and '70's were more patriotic? Is that why there were so many awol's going to Canada and other places because of the VietNam War? "

    Truth wrote on Nov 20, 2007 7:30 AM:

    " Regarding the backgrounds of the groups behind these anti-American protests. One group behind this protest is the American Friends Service Committee. The AFSC has supported the Vietnamese Communists, Fidel Castro, and even defended genocidal Pol Pot. Really. They called the news of the massacres in Cambodia an American "misinformation campaign" despite the fields filled with over a million dead. The AFSC provides cover for the real torturers and murderers in the world while blaming America instead. More info: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6172 "

    It's really simple, wrote on Nov 20, 2007 6:26 AM:

    " "America - Love it or LEAVE! Protestors support the enemy so don't let the door hit you in the backside on your way out! America doesn't need you. "

    Mike wrote on Nov 20, 2007 5:46 AM:

    " Where are the protests against beheadings and the torture commited by terrorists. I guess suicide bombings are okay they are just disinfranchised people our bad. "

    Dan wrote on Nov 20, 2007 5:26 AM:

    " Proudly serving my country here, let them protest, let them have a day in my shoes and go throught everything i have had to sacrifice and how many freedoms i give away so that htey can do what they can and they would have a different view on things. "

    Thankful... wrote on Nov 20, 2007 12:27 AM:

    " I too am thankful that God sent His son, Jesus, that He died for all of us. He suffered and was tortured (more than any other human in history, I think) so that we all can be free and have the hope of life everlasting! Before you protesters start making accusations regarding training tactics at Ft. Huachuca, you need to get the facts straight and the truth of this whole thing. God Bless our Troops and God Bless this Great Nation, the USA! "

    Donzo wrote on Nov 19, 2007 11:11 PM:

    " No the ends do not justify the means, that was what was wrong with communism and nazis. We hold the moral high ground, and no we do not ever allow toture. We tolerate each others views in a free society. We recognize a Supreme Being is responsible for God-given rights and the complex creation we see around us. We must bear arms to defend those rights. No we are not ugly Americans. Lets show our good side, and not degenerate ! Why cant we just get along. Support our good people at the Fort they risk all for you. "

    Can think and have questions wrote on Nov 19, 2007 9:25 PM:

    " Why would you call people Communist and clueless because they can think for themselves. They have questions. They can think outside the box. And they are open minded being able to see another point of view. The people that would say those things are naive and brainless believing every thing they are fed. This country is beautiful and I appreciate the military. I served in it. I do not believe in torture. As an intelligent adult I do wonder how much accurate information we are given. Facts and stories can be bias. "

    #'s Cruncher wrote on Nov 19, 2007 9:03 PM:

    " Nearly 300 protesters against the Intelligence Center. Were you there counting them Hess, or did you pull that figure out of the air? As in most of your articles a bunch of air, "

    Marion B. Stults wrote on Nov 19, 2007 9:02 PM:

    " I was a U.S.Marine during WWII. If you wanted to see torture you should have observed Japanese troops and their method of torture. Against American civilians and troops. These people are as bad as the enemy and need to know this. "

    American Patriot wrote on Nov 19, 2007 8:19 PM:

    " First....Hoorah to the woman who told the truth about the protesters being communists & liars. Organizers & promoters: Communist Party USA (Salt of the Earth College, Peacecalendar); Revolutionary Communist Party of America (WorldCantWait), Clerics ("Liberation Theology", long anti-American, anti-Capitalist Central American religious movement) WILPF,CodePink, ...see for yourself: discoverthenetworks.org! Second, David, this "useless" military includes members of my family who are doctors and lawyers who are proud and eager to serve our wonderful country! You have been brainwashed by communist lies! Third, thanks to the BRAVE....we remain THE FREE! THANK YOU U.S. MILITARY! "

    Fort wrote on Nov 19, 2007 8:16 PM:

    " Websters: 1 : a strong or fortified place ; a fortified place occupied only by troops and surrounded with such works as a ditch, rampart, and parapet. This is not really a Fort, Illegals run through it, protesters are invited on it. The Army, and their superior officers are becoming a joke. Inviting protesters to dinner? "

    SV Lib wrote on Nov 19, 2007 7:58 PM:

    " Like my sign said, “Shut down Ft. Huachuca’s torture center.” We are not asking to close the post or give up our freedom. Just stop training our the soldiers to torture and don't train them to behave like terrorist. I support the soldier 100%. Let's just trained them right. "

    Wow wrote on Nov 19, 2007 7:49 PM:

    " Both sides of the issue are nuts. Torture might be a necessity, and anyone that thinks it isn't used is living in the dark ages. And the paid soldiers, aren't all that patrotic, they are in it for the money/ relistment/bonuses/enlisting cash. The Army is on is sliding down hill. Us vets that were drafted, in the 60's/ 70's were more patriotic, that the enlisties now, and went though a lot of hard training, no easy street. No that the DI couldn't call you names. or cuss you out. "

    Jesse wrote on Nov 19, 2007 7:44 PM:

    " This whole article is fallacious. This was not a anti-post vs pro-post protest. This was an anti-torture/anti-school of americas protest vs pro-Bush/pro-fort/pro-war counter protest. I sat there and watched the two groups yell at each other while neither knew exactly what the other was protesting. It was pretty funny really. Both sides knew they were right though. Ultimately, us Soldiers don't need anybody protesting for us, but if it makes you feel better about this failed war, feel free. "

    Same results different means wrote on Nov 19, 2007 5:05 PM:

    " I agree with Mr. Matthews. It seems that people tend to compromise integrity and morals to suit their desires at that time. I for one was brought up right is right and wrong is wrong. And, you might not always like the out come. Just like 2 wrongs don't make a right. Most are taught this at an early age. Don't get me wrong torture is not acceptable behavior for any one. I'm sure though that if people in power thought about it they could come up with humane ways to find out critical information. "

    To Clueless Jack wrote on Nov 19, 2007 5:00 PM:

    " Jack,Obviously, you have missed or forgotten about several of the wars our country has fought, including WWII. To even suggest that your right to freedom of speech is not protected by the soldiers who bear the burden of protecting our liberties further shows how clueless you and your friends are. Where would your "human right" of freedom of speech be under Hitler, Stalin, or Hussain? You better believe you owe every soldier, past and present, the right and the privilege to speak freely! Perhaps if you shoulder even a small share of responsibility our troops do. "

    Mike S. wrote on Nov 19, 2007 4:54 PM:

    " Ehh, keep on protesting, nobody cares, they never have, and never will care about what traitors think. Carry on...if it makes you feel better to hang out with a handful of traitors like yourselves, go ahead, the True Patriots will always stick together for this Country. Lucky for you.......... "

    West Cosgrove wrote on Nov 19, 2007 4:49 PM:

    " I was among the hundreds present asking that the US government make clear policies against the use of torture. We were not protesting the base or the troops. We are against the use of torture techniques used at Abu Ghraib. All people of good will, military and non-military alike should be against torture. How could it be otherwise? "

    David wrote on Nov 19, 2007 4:46 PM:

    " A lot of these comments show how narrow- minded Americans can be. First of all, the U.S. Military is useless. It just gives a bunch of people that did horrible in school a chance to make some money without flipping burgers. I don't know if the fort teaches torture methods or not, but if they do, they need to learn that everybody is the same, no matter what their race, religion, or nationality (such as Iraqis). "

    I don't think so James wrote on Nov 19, 2007 3:56 PM:

    " James, not everyone in this country is Christian or even believe in any kind of "higher power". I'm sick and tired of fundies trying to force their "morals" and "ideals" down the throats of the rest of us by condemning anything they dislike. "

    Joe wrote on Nov 19, 2007 3:55 PM:

    " These protesters ARE Communist liars and that's no rant n rave. Search anti-war at DiscoverTheNetworks.Org "

    Jo wrote on Nov 19, 2007 3:20 PM:

    " Actually Jack, you are right that it is a human right to free speech. You are right that our military does not "give" you that right. However, they do PROTECT your right to badmouth them. Go ahead and try to speak freely in a country that does not have our great military who ensures your right to do so and see what happens. "

    derek wrote on Nov 19, 2007 2:58 PM:

    " I was there Sunday. I was not there to support the base or to protest the protestors. I was there to support the troops and show them that there are people that care about them and what they do. They are brave and noble men and women who put ther lives on the line every day so that we may live as freely as we do. God bless the troops and ther families! P.S. We have the freaks out numbered 1000 to 1 it just didnt look like it. "

    Jesse wrote on Nov 19, 2007 2:52 PM:

    " No Soldier gave me the right to protest. I'm a Soldier myself, but I certainly don't go around claiming I should be given credit for people being able to speak freely. Freedom of speech is one of those rights endowed upon us by our creator and protected further by the 1st amendment to the constitution. The 1st amendment does not grant it, it merely denies the federal government the ability to regulate it. If anything it can be said that the military protects the people from the government because of the oath to uphold the constitution. "

    Served proudly wrote on Nov 19, 2007 2:46 PM:

    " I have a question, there is a woman holding a pink sign(home page) stating something about her husband. It's hard to tell, but is she wearing a military issue hat. If she is that is a disgrace to the uniform. If she likes wearing the uniform let her enlist and wear it correctly. Torture is wrong plain and simple. People get upset because our military is tortured, but these same people feel it's alright to torture others. Definitely a double standard. We need to bring our men and women home. We've lost enough lives. "

    What is wrong with you? wrote on Nov 19, 2007 2:42 PM:

    " To Jack, How delusional are you? Try "speaking freely” or exercising your "human rights" in any other country and see how far you get. Maybe you need to experience something beyond your front yard. If someone didn't protect your "human rights" you wouldn't have any. Who do you think protects you from the repercussions of your "human right" to speak freely? Pull your head out of the sand. "

    Matt wrote on Nov 19, 2007 1:11 PM:

    " It makes me sad that leaders of churches are organizing protests like this when they should be at the front of the line leading our nation in prayers for the men and women serving our country voluntarily. Our soldiers have families that worry about them and spend more than a year in places where anyone on the street could be someone trying to kill them. Instead of being thanked and saluted when they actually have time at home with their loved ones they have put up with crap like this. God Bless the soldiers for what they do for us. "

    what a crock wrote on Nov 19, 2007 1:06 PM:

    " I had emails coming from "friends" as far as San Francisco. We as Americans have the right to protest - but the intelligent protestor has facts to back his/her rants up. The torture techniques detailed are nothing compared to suicide bombings, beheadings, etc. We should use any method possible to get info out of an enemy who feels obligated to killing Americans. "

    mmhm. wrote on Nov 19, 2007 12:38 PM:

    " i saw the 'Freedom Riders' they were protesting too. being a biker is not a crime! "

    David wrote on Nov 19, 2007 12:36 PM:

    " To Jack: Actually Jack, while your right to speak freely is a God given right, it can just as easily be taken away by humans. Did the Jews in Nazi Germany have the right to speak freely without fear? Did the citizens under communist oppression in the U.S.S.R have freedom to speak? Do the Chinese? Do the North Koreans? While your right to speak freely may be God given, throughout the history of this great country, that right has been defended by soldiers. If you don't see that, you are just plain ignorant. "

    Bernie Cazares wrote on Nov 19, 2007 12:07 PM:

    " Yes! My friend Michael Layne and I were allowed to preach the Gospel from accross the street from the protesting. I thank God for sending his Son and allowing him to be tortured on that cross so that his shed blood could bring us the forgiveness of sins. His Son Jesus, freely sacrificed his life (like our troops) so that we could live and have eteral life. God Bless our troops! "

    I AM AN AMERICAN SOLDIER AND FAMILY MEMBER!! wrote on Nov 19, 2007 11:39 AM:

    " you can't have it both ways. Get a life. Have you forgotton many of our American civilians heads were sawed of and shot in the back. If you don't like your freedom in America leave this country and go to another country. I am proud of our soldiers and the ones that died did not die in vain. They are all heroes! Stand tall! Thank you! "

    I AM AN AMERICAN SOLDIER AND FAMILY MEMBER!! wrote on Nov 19, 2007 11:35 AM:

    " Thank you to each and every soldier fighting for our freedom. We support you. To those who have nothing better to do then protest-if you don't like America-Leave and find refuge in another country. We are tired of you. 9/11 was not any AMericans fault. May the people arrested be getting used to prison for a long time. Don't these people against our soldiers have *JOBS* and what they should have if they are working be fired!! Don't tell me people you don't like the way the torture is and you support our troops- "

    Cindy wrote on Nov 19, 2007 11:20 AM:

    " I am saddened by the exchange of harsh dialogue among people coming from a supposedly civilized nation. One thing I believe is being overlooked here:we are all citizens of this earth, which was given to us as human beings to protect & to love. This includes our neighbors, both here in the US & all around the world. I deeply sympathize with our troops & their loved ones for the pain that has been inflicted on them by our country's administration, but we must not expect others to love us as neighbors until we can do the same. "

    If Ignorance is bliss then... wrote on Nov 19, 2007 11:12 AM:

    " the protestors are as happy as they come. Torture is not taught on Ft. Huachuca or anywhere else... good try with the bus stunt... it's a shame, because when we get attacked again, these same people will be blaming President Bush, when it's their actions and actions that handcuff the govt/military from doing what it needs to do, that will be to blame. "

    Ken wrote on Nov 19, 2007 11:03 AM:

    " Jack, you said, "Actually, our right to speak freely at the Fort is a human right, not one given to us by soldiers." What do you base your "rights" upon? Your rights are protected by the Constitution. A soldier's only professed alligience is to "Support and Defend the Constitution." While you may have your right to speak "at" the Fort, you do not have the right to speak "on" the Fort. "

    jack wrote on Nov 19, 2007 9:45 AM:

    " An interesting article and one which displays ignorance based entirely on emotion. In all of this, no one has defined what constitutes torture. Apparently it is a word that has different meanings to various individuals. "

    Chris S. wrote on Nov 19, 2007 9:36 AM:

    " Who cares if we *do* torture people to get intelligence? A little bit of pain or psychological torture never hurt nobody... Besides, that information can be used to save lives! "

    James Matthews wrote on Nov 19, 2007 9:21 AM:

    " We'll be praying that both justice and mercy are expressed here. Whether or not torture is being taught is more of a matter of personal opinion as to when something we do to someone can be considered "torture." I do believe that if our nation is to prosper we must put God first and then make sure we do not compromise our integrity or our moral courage in our efforts to accomplish our missions. "

    Hereford wrote on Nov 19, 2007 9:21 AM:

    " I'm glad I stayed away from there this weekend. "

    feeling sick wrote on Nov 19, 2007 9:05 AM:

    " It turns my stomach to think that our own citizens demand dignity and respect towards our enemies after the 9/11 incident. If we can get any type of intel out of these terrorists in whatever way, so be it. And of course they were the first to blame our Government for not doing enough before 9/11 happened. What a bunch of hypocrites! I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN AND STAND BEHIND MY COUNTRY THROUGH THICK AND THIN!!! "

    MS :) wrote on Nov 19, 2007 8:53 AM:

    " Well I hope they all get jail time. "

    This stinks wrote on Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM:

    " First the Army invites them on the fort, then instead of having soldiers using rifle butts to loosen a few teeth, crack a few ribs, when they enter illegally, they arrest them. "

    Unbelievable wrote on Nov 19, 2007 8:36 AM:

    " Obviously this group can't learn from their past mistakes. You may have the right to protest and disagree, but that doesn't give you the right to trespass on Federal property. Throw them all in jail. "

    Thomas Palmer wrote on Nov 19, 2007 8:17 AM:

    " I lump these anti war torture protestors in with that church that shows its ugly head at the military funerals around the country.. My son was hurt in Afghanistan and these protestors dishonor his honorable service.. that really bothers me! "

    Born in the USA wrote on Nov 19, 2007 8:06 AM:

    " Let me reiterate, while some of these protesters were still sucking their thumbs our P.O.W.s were getting theirs removed at the hands of their captors. Whatever interogation includes the ends justifies the means. War is horrble but the Lord allows it therefore he forgives us because he KNOWS ALL. What have you done for your country lately? besides complain. Our Military is made up of volunteers. How about a trip DOWN RANGE? "Grannies" get your own music don't steal from the Marine Corps, I am a former Marine. The lyrics are sacred. GOD BLESS our troops and the USA. "

    Jack wrote on Nov 19, 2007 7:04 AM:

    " Actually, Terri, our right to speak freely at the Fort is a human right, not one given to us by soldiers. The Constitution merely recognizes this pre-existing right in the First Amendment, as it belongs to us as humans. The vigorous exercise of this right in the face of those who oppose our speaking out does more to secure and perpetuate it than anyone whose job is to kill people and break things. Your husband may well be an honorable man but I can speak freely without him. "

    Really... wrote on Nov 19, 2007 6:54 AM:

    " The counter protestors were not just the "pro-post" side. They were the patriotic, pro-AMERICAN side. The side that does not want America to surrender to the terrorists who threaten us. The side that does not tolerate anti-American scum, who side with the enemy, calling our brave soldiers "torturers" and "baby killers". The side who honors the sacrifices of our soldiers and their families and defends them against those who would slander them. The anti-USA protestors give aid comfort to the enemy, emboldening them to hold out a bit longer, prolonging the war. Traitors. "

    Dennis N. wrote on Nov 19, 2007 6:53 AM:

    " Well written story with many facts. The number of the protesters on the anti-torture side is inflated, 150 was the max at the height, we had people keeping track. Lets not forget that in addition to the bus driver being cited, a couple of the motorcycles were too...lets keep it fair and balanced. Support America, Support our Troops, Tucson, wants to thank the Sierra Vista Police, the men and woman of our military services and US Attorneys office for their diligence. We would also like to thank the sierra vista herald. "

    torture wrote on Nov 19, 2007 6:51 AM:

    " We are too nice to people. You see the mexican keep on crossing and they are treated better than we are in america. Leave it alone. Let our military do what they have to do. "

    Pauly wrote on Nov 19, 2007 6:45 AM:

    " Good choice in the color of their shirts. Jail Orange. Get used to it! "

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